SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Ask for the Skinny Podcast with a guest. I'm proud to present Zoritsa Nesemeyer. Zoritsa, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself. What is your story?

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Hi, Peter. It's really nice to be on your show. Thank you for the invitation. So my story is that, as you already know, we're neighbors. So back in the 90s, I was born and raised in former Yugoslavia. In the 90s, we had a civil war. I was with my family about a year in the war. We escaped to Germany, where I spent the majority of my life. But somewhere in my mid-20s, I had a burnout at work, which I didn't know. It's related to my trauma and everything that I have experienced. So I did a lot of therapy in my life. And I was always good for a while, and then I would circle back and good for a while and circle back. Therapy was super important for me. So I had things that I had to process that I had to work on. But later on, I realized that I'm always circling back and I didn't understand it. So I started to look for something different. And as you also know, our culture is very holistic. So I was like, okay, let's see what else is out there. So I switched into a holistic part of mental health. And um I teach today everything that helped me. Um at some point in my life, I went back um to school in Germany. We have a three-year program that is holistic-based. And um this is how I came to all this to start helping people that were in the similar positions as I am, where you do therapy, where you do medication, but you still have anxiety, you still have panic attacks, you are still not sleeping at night, and you're not doing good, and you constantly feel burned out.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah, uh, thank you for for uh this uh intro. What I would like to ask is uh before we started, you mentioned something uh that uh working in tech is now uh now has uh similar influence to our psyche than uh your uh traumas from the world. Uh could you elaborate a bit more how uh programmers and all these IT professions are now work till exhaustion and they have huge mental health challenges, and how you help corporate world resolve this one?

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That's actually very simple, and and this is what the most people underestimate is that we we have like all we all have similar hardware. So um I love to explain it um in a form on the iPhone, okay? So you have a iPhone 1, and we all know like our age, we all remember the iPhone 1, and now we have iPhone 17. So now you put the software of the iPhone 17 in one, and the one is going to be crashing all the time because the hardware is not made for it. So that's the same thing with our bodies. Just imagine how fast we developed in the last, let's say, 30 years. Like, where are we with the technology? Like you and I, we grew up without the phone because they were not a thing back then, you know. Now everybody's using all those electronic things and AI and everything else. So now let's come back how that is similar to my war experience for the body. Body does not see the difference between I am in real life danger or I am in self-made life danger, because we only have two states in our body. We have the sympathetic, the stress state, and the parasympathetic, the relaxed and digestive state. There is no gray areas, there is no nothing in between. So when we have so much stress and work, when everything these days is just pressure and you have to deliver more, and even having those AI tools that are actually helping in our work, now we are also expected to do even more because now we have AI, so we can we can do more. So all of that is putting stress on ourselves. And this is what a lot of people don't understand is as soon as we have a stress thought, it activates the body. So body is always involved in the mental pressure. So as soon, let's say, uh, let's let's do it this way. You're somewhere outside, you're hiking, and then out of nowhere, you have a dangerous animal in front of you. So you're of course going to fight or flight, right? So your body's gonna respond, it will is gonna prepare you to run or fight for your life. So it will pump you full of uh stress hormones, mainly adrenaline, so they have more energy and focus. So now let's go in the front of the computer. So you have a deadline, you see you, you, you're not, you're not getting there, you your your boss is giving you pressure. Um, of course, there is the ego, and um there is you expect a lot of yourself because you you're already up there. So you are technically doing the same thing in the head as standing in front of the dangerous animal, you're activating your body. So when the body is activated, um it's it's running on survival mode. It it's it it it's looking for the danger. So now the the first thing that actually is switching is the breathing. So uh let's say if even if you don't have a lot of stress, if you're in general like calm person and you're not stressed out, let's go from that person. So you will inhale normally um into the belly because the belly breathing is the one that we should always be in. In the chest breathing, we we should only be if we really have a really big problem right now. We are in a really dangerous situation, or we're working out because this is also where I need more oxygen. So you're switching the breathing. When you switch the breathing into the chest, a lot of other things are happening in the body, you're producing stress hormones, um, your um oxygen levels are getting higher, your CO2 levels are getting lower, that also has a huge influence on how we think and how we see things. So um, so when you get into that state, you're sending again the head to signal, hey, we are not safe. So, yes, if you're in the woods, if you're high key, yes, of course you're not safe because the dangerous animal is standing in front of you. But when you're in front of your computer, the the whole the the same programming is going on in the body, but we are actually not in danger. But the body does not know that because the body is has the hard hardware from iPhone 1. It's just this part of the brain is the most developed brain that we have when it comes to our society right now. This one adapted beautifully, so that's the software of iPhone 17. So that one is actually triggering the hardware, and it's like now the hardware is like that. I cannot do that. So that's the same thing with our body. So our body is running them on stress, but you're actually just sitting in front of the computer. And then what additionally happens, and why the mental health is so influenced with it, by sending the brain signal, I'm not safe, the brain is scanning for danger because it needs to make sense of what the body is sending. So now if you're sitting there, you're not getting your deadline. Um, and then, for example, your boss sends you a message over Teams, and it's actually just a regular message, it's it's because he also doesn't have time, it's like really short. So your brain is like, oh my God, see, like my boss is already mad. I'm not getting there. So you are literally creating yourself way more problems that you already have because you're not getting the deadline, so you are overwhelming yourself, then your brain is racing, you cannot calm that down, and all of that is connected, like the brain and the body, like what's happening in the body is very connected. And I figured out in the all work that I did until now, and with myself as well, once you calm down your body, once you switch the state you're in, once you go from stressed to relaxed, then you can think better and you you also can perform better. Like the pressure is not there anymore. So, again, I'm not saying you only need this to um if you have already have problems with that for a longer period of time, that also means, hey, maybe there is something, maybe there's some coping skills that you should learn where maybe you you experienced something in your life like me. Um, this is why I had my burnout in my mid-20s. And it was, by the way, in a corporate job. After that, I left my corporate job. Um, I thought, I thought I had this burnout because of my past, but later on I figured out, okay, the corporate wall is cruel, it's really hard. And but my past made me get faster into it because I was already breathing up here for a very long time. So um, and by understanding what is happening in the body, this is how we can help our mind follow. So calm your body down first, and the mind will follow.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Did that answer your question? I'm sorry, it was a little bit more. Hey, go ahead. Uh that is why I'm here.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yeah. Um, we we we were talking about uh so much stress at work, and um let's say the most popular handling mechanism for this stress is uh sport. So most of highly let's say successful business people or or people working in corporate work, uh they they use sport to offset their stress at work. And my experience is that uh you cannot offset stress with uh another stress. And uh it's it's something completely different if you if you're doing the yoga or Pilates or something like that. But most corporate people are not pleased with that, and and and they go for um uh fighting sports for marathons, all this stuff, and marathons are extremely popular, and this is just extreme stress to the body. How can we know what is good for us and what is not? And is is there any uh let's call it um quick advice or uh a trick that we can use to scan if uh we are in a sympathetic or parasympathetic uh uh nervous system, which which one is dominant right now? Is there a trick that we can use to check?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, yeah, it's it's very easy to see. It's like I'm gonna show you now because I really want the people that are listening and um that are having problems with this. The thing is that the majority of the corporate leaders and ex oh my god, pronouncing okay, let's say leaders, um they don't even know that they're in a sympathetic state and they just adapt to all of that and they think, okay, this is who I am. It becomes an identity, which is not, is it's the state. So for recognizing, I always tell people if they say, Hey, I have a lot of fresh hours, I have a lot of stress, um, first thing to recognize, hey, do you already have symptoms? Like, let's see if you even realize that you're under so much pressure and stress. Symptoms are not sleeping well, um, sometimes being a little bit aggressive, you know, um, always being on the go. But to check it really quick, it's it just takes a few seconds. You place one hand on your chest and you place one hand on a belly. Let me show you this. If this hand moves, you're definitely insympathetic. So if you do this, you're definitely sympathetic. Like there is no way you're not. As soon as you inhale for a longer period of time into your chest, you are producing stress hormones. Like that there is no way you're not doing it. And if you want to make sure that you're not insympathetic, then this hand has to move. So this is how it should look long term. So at the beginning, it's hard, especially if you've already been in over decades in the chest breathing. Um, the the diaphragm gets stiff, it's really hard to inhale into the belly and it feels unnatural. But more you do it, easier it's gonna become. You know how people say when they're stressed, like, oh my god, I'm so stressed, I feel it here. Like all of us, all of us when our stress, we we would do this, right? Yeah, because those muscles are not made to be constantly moved. So you, if you constantly inhale into your chest, you're constantly moving those muscles. Then we have people that are more like just listening.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Uh, she's showing the neck muscles. So we have stiff neck when we are under too much stress, and that is because the neck should not move all the time.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yes, exactly. So um the uh abdominal muscles are made for being constantly moved. You will never get sore because you're constantly inhaling in your belly. So, and and and this is also an additional stressor that we can turn off with just differently breathing, is uh a lot of a lot of people also when they're under stress, they get headaches. So that's the same thing. It's it's from from those muscles here, from the neck and the shoulders. When they get stiff, the fascia, the last muscle layer over the body goes over the head. So the fascia gets tense and then it pushes on the head. So, and then the the blood supply and everything, when those muscles get tense, you you do get problems. And um, the people that are more likely to have headaches, it's not everybody, but a lot of people do. They will then get headaches when they're stressed. And that is all connected. And now let me come really quick to the sports. So checking, are you in sympathetic is really easy. Place your hands like this and see what hand is moving. Um, with sports, um, I developed um the body first regulation model. And in this model, there is one pillar, it's called move. Um, move is super important for stress and the brain. Um, but the thing is, if you're for too long and sympathetic, and this is why those people that are so stressed in the corporate world don't like like yoga or something like that, because yoga is again forcing them to calm down. And they at that point they cannot do it. So it builds up more frustration. So they have a lot of um stress hormones in the body and they have to burn them out, and they realize hey, when I'm working out, when I'm going into martial arts, when I'm um running, doing marathon, um, I'm I'm burning it out, and and I do feel better for a moment. And that's true, and they they can keep it, but turn off the sympathetic mode or uh state the majority of the day. When when you manage to turn it off during the day and then go and work out and do all of those sports, it's a very healthy combination. Because what the majority of the people do when they're stressed, um the brain does the thing where you it makes you lazy lazy. So you're actually not lazy, but it takes motivation away. Um, you feel exhausted, you actually feel like you ran a marathon after a whole day of stress, and you technically did, like your body did, like your your your um physiology did. And then it makes you, hey, let's just calm down, let's just not do anything, let's have a drink and sit down and relax. But you keep breathing up here, so you you're not relaxing. So um, but to come back into balance, uh, especially if you have a lot of stress at work, sports is the best thing that you can do. And um, a fun fact, there is a neuroscientist, his name is Daniel Walpert. Um, he did a research on this uh sea creature, it's called um sea squirt. Um and when it starts at life, it wanders through um through the sea, and then when it finds a rock where it spends the rest of its time, of the lifetime, and uh it also changes the form a little bit, it absorbs a part of the brain. So he is explaining with that that the brain was initially made for movement because you have to imagine we have so many muscles, they all have to be coordinated. So when you go back into the IT world, you know, more you do, more apps you have, more software you have, a bigger processor you need. So this is the same thing with the brain. So the brain, he thinks that the brain initially was um made in that part to be moving. So all living creatures that move have a brain. Like trees, plants, everything that is not moving does not have a brain. So now if the brain is not doing what it initially was made for, and that is movement, then it gets out of balance. To bring brain back, to support the brain, get back into the balance, you need the movement. So they do have still this instinct. I have to move, I have to do sports, I have to burn the energy. Yes, because they have too much of it. So the initial thought is amazing. But if you combine it by trying outside of the sports, because during the sports not gonna possibly you need more oxygen, you need to breathe up here. So that is okay. But uh, if you outside of that remind yourself over and over again to breathe in the belly, then you're gonna find a perfect balance and you're gonna perform better.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Amazing. You already answered my next question. Um, how can we release uh all the all that is left from uh adrenaline being dissolved into cortisol and stuff? What is the best way? And you mentioned sport. Is there any other way that we can do it?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Interrupting producing it. And interrupting producing it is the way you breathe. That is the only physical tool that we have to influence in what state we are, because everything else is is is happening subconsciously. It's like what are we experiencing? Our brain is very complex and amazing, but if we overwhelm the hardware um with our very smart software, so we have we have to find the understanding for the hype hardware. Like our hardware is really old, it's it's still running on the primal, let's say, programming. It's it's just our brain that is so much more advanced, advanced.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Okay, Zoritza, please tell us a bit about your new book.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

So um after spending a while in outpatient hospital, um when I started doing this work, I saw like a lot of those techniques that I that help um were helping me. Um I decided to change my career and like do that because I saw, hey, we need more people besides psychology that are helping with this. And again, I'm not saying we don't need a psychology, we do need it. We we do need medication, we we do need psychology, we need therapy. All of that is very needed in their own areas. But um I found that working with the body in all that combination was a missing piece. And um, so when I was working in the outpatient clinic, I started realizing I worked with a lot of people with burnout. So, really, um a lot of people burnout. And um, at some point I learned a lot of techniques and I used a lot of things, but at some point I realized, oh my God, I'm I'm always somehow using the same things in the same order. So, why am I doing that? So I started analyzing my work and why am I working like that? I'm very intuitive. So when I work with people, I take a look at the whole person. So, what is your job? Do you have family? How did you grow up? Um, where are you originally from? Because where we come originally from plays a huge role in our personality. And uh, and especially you, you you you're coming from a different part of the world where you worked and lived for a while. So we're all a little bit different, and it plays a big role where we come from. So um, and by analyzing my work, um, I realized, oh my God, like I'm I'm always using the the the same pattern that I work, and it really works on people if they follow it. So um, my work is not fixing anyone. So no, I'm not fixing anyone. It's like a guideline, it's guideline and education. So I love to call myself an educator because I educate people. Why are things happening in a body? Because more we understand, more we are willing to change it. So, and at some point, um I realized there are not a lot of people working like I do. So I have to spread it out. And one of my friends who's actually coming from marketing, she's like, Why don't you write a book? And I said, I'm not a writer, I'm not writing a book. And she's like, Well, they're ghostwriters, so you don't have to write it. And I said, And in my English, you know, when I started a book, I was only like four years in the US. So I'm I'm still kind of struggling with the English. And she's like, hey, they're ghostwriters, and um, she loves the stuff that I do. So you have to write a book. So I developed this five-pillar model that is not completely body-based, but majority of the body-based, the pillar one is understand it. So means understand the stress state, understand the zympathetic state in your body. Um, the second pillar is breathe it. So, what we just did, what I explained, hey, you have to pay attention uh where you breathe. And I explain, like in the book, way more why that is important. The third pillar is move it. So, what we just talked about, sports and movement, super important for the brain. Um, the third pillar is supported. So, in supported, I speak then about hormones, about nutrition, um, because that plays a huge role as well. So, we are one system, so we have to pay attention to all of those pillars to get back into balance. And the fifth pillar is protected. So, the problem is a lot of times when we are under a lot of stress, we do not take care of ourselves. So, we don't always say no when we should be saying no. Um, we don't pay attention to our needs, and that goes a little bit more into psychology uh about hey, um, what is important on that part? So that, and the book is more a self-help book, so it's not another book where um things are just explained and you read the book, and I I experience that a lot of times. I read the book and I said, Oh, cool, I understand it, but what do I do now? And um, this book has examples um and also um a layout how you can do it to switch to states because um it is a habit. You you your nervous system already learned to live into sympathetic nervous system and in the sympathetic state. So you have to relearn it. It's like relearning a habit. So and you have to do it for a while to that is normal for you when you're stressed to come back into parasympathetic on your own.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Thank you. Uh before I let you go, I will ask you one more question. Uh you wrote a self-help book. Yeah. When should we pick a book and try to solve our problems with a book? And when should we go and find a therapist or a coach to help us?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Um, I think when you start realizing that something is off, and when you start realizing um I'm not doing good, I'm I'm not sleeping well, I'm all the time on the edge. Um, if you don't know in what direction you should go, um, in those cases, it is really good to pick the book and read about it a little bit more. So more understanding, to understand yourself, like where are my things coming from? Is it like, is it trauma? I mean, you have to go to therapists to do trauma. Is it something that I have problems finding my way in the world? There are a lot of coaches that help that take you on the hand and walk with you for a while until you sort your things. So life is hard, and there are a lot of specialists out there that can help you. But in those cases, it is always a good advice to start with a book. See what's going on with you, like what direction you can go. And um if you already have trauma, like we don't have to talk about that. Like, go book a therapist. And if you were, especially if you're in a corporate world, um and you experience a lot of stress at work, additionally to your trauma, a lot of times, so I'm I'm very nature-based. So um I will take medication just in case it's not really needed. But in those cases, um, I experienced it a lot that people um, when they're under a lot of stress and had trauma and experience already if something is not going well, they do need for a while at least a medicational support. Because um, I experienced with the clients that I worked with, it is really hard to work on calming yourself down when you constantly have pressure at work and work on your trauma. So I don't work with them on the trauma, but the therapists do. So uh I had a lot of combinations where they go to the psychiatrist, to a therapist, and come to see me. So that is a very fast way to get back into balance. And um, my book in general, um, it is good to pick it up if you really see, hey, something is off. Um, let me see through all the five pillars. And you you can really analyze yourself pretty well in the book. Um, and my book is also mainly made for people that did a lot of therapy, read a lot of books, and they still don't feel good. Then um, if you did all of those things, then my book is gonna be huge help because that was for me. I did a lot of therapy, I did all that work, I learned coping skills, I processed things, but I still was not feeling good. So the body part was missing in my mental health healing. And um, if if you were there, if you say, hey, I did a lot of things already, nothing or not, nothing is helping, it helped a little bit. So I processed things, I learned coping skills, but a lot of times if if the body is running on 200, um, the coping skills are not gonna help you because the body will always win.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Thank you. Uh where can our listeners and viewers get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

So um we there are gonna be um there's gonna be a link um of my website um from my book. My book is called Oh, anxiety. And um it's gonna be a landing page for podcast listeners, and you will find all the information there. I'm also offering, so if you read a book and you say, Hey, this is amazing and I would love to try it, but somehow I cannot manage it on my own, I also offer um online sessions to guide the people through their um journey switching from sympathetic to parasympathetic because it is a journey. It took me seven months um to switch. Um, so it is a quieter journey. If if they think uh, hey, I would just like to get a book, you're also gonna find the link to uh places where you can buy the book, um, or you can read a little bit more about me and um my book on the website.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Thank you. Thank you for all these insights, Orsa, and thank you for being my guest tonight.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Thank you very much. Uh, it was a pleasure to be here.