SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Ask for the Skinny Podcast with the guest. I'm proud to present Joe Davies. Joe, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself. What is your story?

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Well, thank you, Peter. It's it's great to be here. I like that first question because most people make that you you usually tell about me and then I don't have to. Well, let me do that briefly. Um I will start at the very end here. I'm 67 years old now. I have four children and nine grandchildren. I've been married 45 years. I spent most of my working career at a company called the Boston Consults Group, BCG. When I say most, it was 37 of 40 plus years. And there, obviously, with a career that long, a lot of different twists and turns and um experiences from different working across the world in different offices, opening offices, leading offices, eventually leading North America, starting practices. So it was a very, very wonderful career for me. Uh hard work, a lot of hours, a lot of travel. Consultants do travel four days a week, maybe not as much as they used to, but I did. Before that, quickly, I spent six years at Procter and Gamble, the, you know, the consumer good company in sales, which is a very humbling and good experience. And I ran restaurants in college, etc. You know, the usual stuff, had a paper out when I was a kid. So there's my work story. I think that's what you meant by with a little bit of a slice of my my family life, which is quite important to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Thank you. I would like to ask you about the burnout. And we know thinking uh or doing the consulting job is one of the most uh I'd say demanding, yeah, even difficult from time to time. How did you manage to avoid a burnout or live through that because you said that you you almost spent 40 years there? So how was that possible not to be completely burned out? You said you travel four days a week. How was that? How how did that happen? How did you uh manage to organize yourself and your life? Uh and of course they married and all these stuff.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, yeah. You know, Peter, I I could go for hours. You got me, my brain is now twisted. I could help I can remember everything on my brain is going through my brain to tell you, but let me try to think of some highlights. So, as you said, yes, consultants work very hard. I mean, I think the first, oh, I don't know, the first, I don't know how many years, whatever, the first five, six, ten years. I 60 hours would be a normal week, 80 would be a nice solid work week. You know, there weren't that many hundreds. I don't think there's anything, such thing as a 40. And I was on the road four days a week, and you touched work every weekend. So, yes, I qualify for the burnout thing. And I will tell you, and then I'm going to answer your question. Initially, story is I was a second year, and one time I worked, I counted 39 days in a row, every single day, and not just working at home. I was in the office if it was the weekend or as a client on Monday through Thursday. And it was a Wednesday, and my manager was beating me up, I thought, over some analysis and pushing me hard and challenging me, and I was burned out. Not quit job, bro, but burn out. I remember I just lost it. And I stood up. I don't remember if I teared up or not, because I'm with known to cry. I stood up and said, listen, I've been here 39 days. I've had enough. I'm going home. I'll see you Monday. He looked at me like, whoa, he couldn't believe it. I said, No, I'm out of here. Too many days. You're kicking the shit out of me. I don't need this. I'm gone. Um, so he didn't stop me to his credit. You know, he probably said, okay, I pushed the limits of this guy. It's now time. So it was a good boss, right? In that he he understood the limits. But I also had started consulting when I was 30. And 30 is not 23. I mean, no offense to either age, but you're a little bit more mature. And I was mature enough to know this is enough for me. I have got to go, even if it's five days, take care of myself. And I'm, and I had the nerve to tell him. So I think one thing there is I did, I'm going to answer your question with some other thoughts too, but I did know when to draw my line. And I'll tell you a story of another person. It was very funny, a young guy at BCG who was in Tennessee or somewhere at the client's. I it wasn't working for me, but it was on my team indirectly. And he had a tooth problem, a toothache, but he was so afraid to tell anybody because he thought he'd lose just the opposite of the story I told you. He kept working. And finally, like the manager there had to grab him by the ear and drag him to the airport and say, you go home and see a dentist, buddy. Because he was he would have let himself go over the edge. In other words, he didn't know how to draw his line. So I do think one important thing I did is true. And so then there's little things, I mean, how to avoid burnout? Well, the one thing is with the context of all that work, I had great colleagues. So I did engage with my colleagues. You know, when I was on the road four days a week, we'd go out to dinner together. We didn't just go watch TV or whatever they would do today. We interacted, which goes a long now, you know, it goes a long way towards helping on burnout, obviously. The other thing um I did is I also drew the line with my family. I had four children, and I didn't see them Monday through Friday. But if there was something critical, like, you know, they have the little, when they're seven years old, they do the little show at night, the singing thing, and it's silly, but to them it's critical. Where's mom and dad out there? I would literally leave work, you know, at three o'clock, get on a plane, be there in time, and then get up first thing in the morning and be on the morning flight and be back at the client. And people say, Where are you going? I said, Well, I can't miss this thing, but you got work to do. I said, I can't miss this thing. I'm gonna go do it. So it's another example of knowing when to draw my line. And in that case, one that won me brownie points with the children. They didn't know, but I knew. So, and then the last thing I'd say is, you know, it's funny. My wife used to say, it's not quite burnout, but it's relationship, because the day I can tell you'd rather be on the road than here is a day we're in trouble. You know, so because she knew, I mean, I love my job. That's the other critical thing, Peter, is you better love it. If you don't love it, I'm just change it, you know. Like, are you crazy? Um but she, but you know, it's pretty clear if that became my only thing I wanted, it would have been a problem. Now, I'll say one other major point on the burnout or macro point. I mean, it was about year 26 or 25 with BCG. And I wanted to be the head of North America. Six other people wanted the job. I didn't get it. And so that stage I thought, you know, well, really, do I need to keep doing this? And maybe I stay in my current role at the time I was heading the Northeast system, which is New York, Boston, Washington, those offices, and some other roles. Do I quit? Do I keep that role? Do I, you know, maybe I do something different? And I remember to the fellow that got the job, I said, listen, why don't I go move to the West Coast, which was where I had grown up as a kid, and run the West Coast, it had underperformed for BCG, still was profitable, but underperforming, and see if I can make a difference. So another thing, if if things, I found myself with enough, I made the twists of the job and the changes that all of a sudden it was different and new. And, you know, that's an obvious point on avoiding burnout. Um, but you know, grabbing interesting opportunities when they came, even if they're risky, goes a long way towards making it a whole new job. So there's a lot of answers for you. Love the role, draw your own line, you know, look for different changes. You can. I could go details and details, but let me stop there and let you ask me what you you know where you want to go.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Yeah, another question that is on my mind is you were a consultant for so many years. Do you still do consulting?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

No. So let me add so the you know, it's funny because a lot of friends and people say, Well, Joe, why don't you coach and have your own little consulting firm and you know, do management training along? I wrote a book about leadership. About I said, Well, if I was gonna do that, then why'd I leave BCG? I just worked at the best consulting firm, or someone might say McKinsey is. We can argue about it, who cares? But one of the best consulting firms in the world. Why would I do that? So, no, I I am not the way you said it. Now, I have nine grandchildren, and I think my job is to ensure they thrive and grow to the best they can be. So you might say I'm consulting my grandchildren, they don't know it, but you know, and I'm very willing to coach young people who want to, you know, want my time. So there's it's not when you said that question, you not the way in a traditional one on one single-shingle consultant, but sure, I try to share my learnings and wisdom as much as I can.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Can we, you mentioned your book. Can we talk a bit about your book, please?

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah, yeah. So I wrote a book at the end of my BCG career called The Generous Leader, Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain. It's about leadership and it's about really and all, well, it's what I call a generous leader, I'll say quickly, is someone who gives of themselves freely without expectation of direct personal benefit, and really is ensuring and helping their team, their colleagues grow, develop, and thrive at their full potential. So it's not about, you know, unicorns and fluffy white clouds and all that, because if you really want someone to grow, you might, for example, have to give very direct and hard feedback. Or if someone doesn't fit, you might have to let them go. I just I say that because sometimes people think, oh, this is all about being nice. It's not about being nice, it's about making sure others, you do everything you can to ensure others thrive and hum. Um, you know, within the context of that, I have kind of like seven traits that I think are important. If we want to, I can rattle them off if you want, but I'll let you ask. So that's that's what it's about. It's quite um, I wrote at the end of the career, a number of colleagues said you should. I led BCG North America's head of the North America during COVID, which was very interesting, intense times, as you know. We look back now and want to see the mistakes we might have made. But um, it was, you know, a lot of uncertainty. And there was a lot of, it wasn't learnings for me then. I think it was a culmination of things I'd learned over all the years. They had a chance to come together. Colleagues said, You ought to write a book about leadership. So I did take a first crack and shared it with Harvard Press because BCG has access everywhere, I was lucky. And the lady said, No book. I said, What's wrong? She goes, Well, it's all about you and COVID and BCG. Nobody wants to read about that. So she suggested, and I did go interview a lot of CEOs who were clients andor friends, and brought their stories in. CEOs who I thought fit the generous leader model and brought their stories in. And then I did get it published. The last thing I'll say is it's very hard writing a book. I'm not sure if you've written one yet, Peter. But and I I said to a friend, I mean, just because it's lonely and you gotta type. And it's just like, you know, my wife used to say, hey, come on, it's time for dinner. We'd be in the summer, grandkids, say, honey, I'm I'm on a roll. If I don't type, nothing happens. So I can't come to dinner. Because I, and you know, it's not like when I was head of North America, I gave assignments to everybody. I didn't have to do anything. I I mean that's a little bit facetious, but you know what I mean. But a friend of mine, I said, Oh, Brian to a colleague of mine, I said, Is this worth it? He said, Joe, if you move eight people to enhance their leadership skills, it'll be worth it. So I think I moved more than eight. So that may be another way when you say consult, it's not what you mean, but I do hope some people, you know, listen to some of these uh traits that I think are important in leaders and crap them.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Okay. Now um the number one question what would be your number one uh advice to someone in their midlife what should they uh what what is the topic that they should address first in order to become a better leader?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Well, that's interesting. I do have number one advice, and I gotta think if it's what I'd say also to be a better leader. So I actually, my number one advice if you're 35, 40, maybe not 28, that's okay, 45, is um, you know, and Arthur Brooks said it. Think as you think about the day-to-day and how you interact with people and what you're doing with your family, think about what you're what people are going to say about you at your eulogy, not at your retirement. Because in a retirement, oh great, grew the business, blah, blah, blah. Well, once you retire, nobody cares. Nobody cares, you know, unless you're really famous and books are written about you. And even then, usually they're negative. Um, so what is what do you want, what are you doing today in the work context and with the people you engage with and in your family side that people are going to talk about at the last moment. Now you won't hear. And I that's a little morbid, but I think people should be thinking like that a little bit more at 40. Now, when you say I will add to that, and more specifically, I actually there's three traits I think are critical. You've asked me for one. So I will say, number one, I think a very good leader is always listening really carefully and really generously. You know, what is it that's behind Peter's question? Why is he saying that? If I'm asking Peter something, what's the answer? What is he saying that I don't know that I that'll make me know more? So, you know, ask questions, ask questions, ask questions, and listen very carefully and use that to grow and develop and learn, you know, the directions you should take. I think that's the number one thing. And it was every interview I did, every CEO said I like to ask, they all said the same thing, you know, I like to probe, I like to listen and ask questions. Anyway, that's my number one. If you well, eulogy, not retirement speech. In other words, think about your legacy, which is radical at 40, but I'm telling you, I wish I well, anyway, and then listen carefully, ask questions and listen.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Is listening a skill that we can learn, or is that something that we are dealt with when you're we were young?

SPEAKER_01 14:30

No, of course you can let learn. I mean, of course. I mean, I'll tell you a funny story. I'm a pretty good listener, but there was one point, maybe 30 years into my career, 30 years into my career, 25 to 30. The general counsel of BCG was talking to me about something, and I knew where she was going to go. But I could have been wrong, you know, but I knew, I thought I knew. So I cut her off and started to answer. And she said, Will you shut the blank up and just let me finish? You know, you cut me up. So, yes, that helped me DB even better, listener. Shut your damn mouth. Of course, you can learn it. I mean, you know, and you learn it by starting by asking questions all the time. And then just try to be humble enough to not worry about what's your in your brain, but learn what's in the what is in the other person's brain that you know I don't know. And you can learn, but you just gotta practice. And asking questions is a very simple way to practice, you know. And you have to get past your ego. If you have an ego problem, you know, you gotta work on that. But you gotta work on that for a lot of reasons.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Okay. You said you have to work on that. Would you recommend reading a book about it or go and see therapist or coach about it?

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Or what?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Uh therapist or coach. Okay. With with uh, for example, each other.

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Well, I'm more into um coaches and therapy than reading books to really change your behavior. Sorry to the book people. But you know, I think, you know, and a coach doesn't. I had a chief of staff when I was out of North America who was an incredible coach to me, you know. So coach does, I had outside coaches too. I mean, the problem with outside coaches, you got to pay for them or a therapist. So, you know, I had BCG would hire coaches for us if you're in leadership roles, but not everybody has the luxury of that spending that money. But you may also have an incredible colleague who can coach you. I mean, I had this chief of staff. I'll tell you one quick story on this whole listening thing. Joaquin Duato, the CEO of Johnson ⁇ Johnson, I was talking to him about. I mean, the other thing I say is when you communicate, you know, really work to communicate to connect with people and make sure they're hearing what you want them to say, not the words out of your mouth. And something, because often you might give a direction or a speech, and you think you said blah, blah, blah, but they thought you said tweet, tweet, tweet. And, you know, it's your fault, not theirs, because they're the one listening. You're not communicating well. One thing he would do, it's a version of a coach and it's a version of ego, is he would do two things. He, if he was going to give a big town hall, he'd collect seven or eight employees and practice. And these would be junior people. And then he'd once he's done, he'd say, okay, well, what did you hear? And, you know, if he said the word ask, if he said the word jump and they said the word run, he said, Oh, wow, I thought I told him to jump and they thought they heard run, you know, or cut costs and they heard it, you know, so he'd actually change the words to he'd take notes and change the words to the words they heard, not the words he said. And or then he'd ask, you know, if you went home tonight and told your family what Joaquin said today, what would you say? And he'd listen to the message. And if it wasn't the message he meant, he'd go rewrite the message. You know, how powerful. I mean, that was seven coaches for free. And it was humbleness and ego put aside enough to say, okay, what I'm saying, they ain't hearing. It's my fault, not their fault. So I think you can find coaches in a lot of places. If you can afford one, go get it. If you can um, but anyway, that's my answer to that. The coach, coach therapist side.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

And I would like to know uh you you you said there are three things bes uh two more things beside listening.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Can you oh yeah, the when people say what are the top three of my seven? So I one is this idea of listening generously, two, and I say it because it's not hard, small acts, big impact. As a leader, doing small things, like for example, remembering it's their birthday by putting it on your calendar and saying happy birthday to somebody. Teeny little thing. That's massive. Um and you know, here, or I'll tell you, you know, you know, but if you send an email and congratulate somebody, people love it. You know, they read it, they and if you copied your boss, they love it more. Whatever. And I one time I was talking to a coach, actually, um, and she was telling me, Do you love that email? That's so funny. Because tonight, today my daughter did a good job in something, and she got an email from the boss, and we were all at the dinner table dissecting that email for the entire meal, proud of her, happy about it. Now, if she had gotten a 10% raise, they would have said, Oh, that's nice, honey. And that's the end of the conversation. They had a whole dinner around this, how proud they were of her. And then last until the different guys, Scott Kirby, CEO of United, I asked him about some of the examples of this. And he told me, well, he's told me the story. His wife was on a plane. She's the CEO of United Airlines after just after COVID. And the captain came out and said, Oh, Mrs. Kirby, it's so great to see you on the plane. You know, I would, I am so love your husband in the context of work, and I'm so devoted to United. She goes, Oh, wow, why? And she said, She's a black female captain. She said, Well, when George Floyd was shot and murdered, Scott called every single black captain just to check in. Didn't tell us the answer. He didn't, he just said, I'm here for you. United's here for you. How are you doing? So it was a simple little act. Now, he had to do the calls, but not very hard. And she was committed forever. So, you know, you can do versions of happy birthday or an email or, you know, a phone call at a critical moment. That's number two. Then number three is I do believe, and we talked, we kind of touched on this, is this whole idea of I say putting down the mask, but you have to bring your human side to work. You know, you've got to bring some of your human self. Showing vulnerability, you know, that means different things to different people, but just showing that you're human, that you don't have all the answers. If you're going to be a good listener, you have to be humble and vulnerable, but have to admit you don't know everything. A quick story on that one, because some people, oh, but I don't want to cry in front of everybody. I'm not saying that. I mean, just saying I don't know is a powerful vulnerability. A colleague of mine, he was telling me he's afraid. I asked him when he kind of crossed his line and exposed himself a little bit more. And he said he was always afraid to say, I don't know, because he's the boss. He's supposed to know everything. So he went, if he was working with the team in the team room and they could tell they were going to get stuck and might turn to him and ask what the ant what they should do. And he didn't know, he'd leave the room before he'd have to say, I don't know. So, you know, the only thing you don't have in business usually is time. So what a waste of time. So one time he stayed in the room, he said, you know, everybody, I don't know either. And he was stunned. It was like this energy released. Oh, you don't know. We don't know. The creative juices. Let's brainstorm this because you know, everyone was blocked because they were afraid to admit, like him, they didn't know, they didn't want to look through. That just freed that blockage by him showing some vulnerability. They could admit theirs, and the creative juices went through the roof. So I think it's very powerful to make sure you, I think you have to now. We could go deeper into it, but I think technology and all these things have just changed the connection of work and the importance of work and life to blurred. Um, you know, show show your human side, show some vulnerability. It is very powerful to get people to trust you and respect you and follow you. Those are my three. Listen, small acts, big impact, put down the mask.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Amazing. Before we conclude, where can our listeners and viewers get in touch with you, or where can they buy your book?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Well, you can buy the book on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, and all that kind of stuff. It's actually coming out in paperback December 1st. Um, I have a website, joeavis.com, so you can learn and you there's a contact form there. Although if you really actually want to connect with me, if you're connecting with me to tell me how to sell more books, I'm not gonna respond. But if you actually want to connect, I'm a big LinkedIn user now, and I do now follow the notifications and the messages. If someone leaves me a message, I will give you my email on LinkedIn. I don't like to communicate by LinkedIn, but I will connect with you. And I will do it. You know, sometimes people say, Oh, I saw you on this show, and they'll send an email. Can we talk about such and such? And if it's more about them than me, I'll do it. You know, I don't I don't like it when people want to sell to me. I don't, I respect that, but I'm not gonna respond. So LinkedIn, and you'll just I Joe Davis, BCG, or Joe Davis the Generous Leader, and you'll find me on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Joe, thank you for being my guest and thank you for sharing all the insights.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Thank you, Peter. This was great. Thank you.