SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Ask for a Skinny Podcast with a guest. I'm proud to present Anne Perfitas. Anne, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself. What is your story?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Thank you so much for having me here. And hello to all the listeners. So I'm Anne, and what I really do is I um embarked on the process of working with people in the midlife space. So women, men in their 40s, 50s, and beyond. There's no real limit to who might need to do the kinds of things that I set out to do with people. But really, my idea is to get people to find that spark and that excitement about life, again, which which we find sort of disappears as the years come go by. We all sort of find ourselves in a space where you know everything just becomes routine, it just becomes uh, you know, your your plate is full of lots of things that don't really deliver to you anything that makes you really excited or look forward to things. And um we kind of we kind of accept that as the pattern for the rest of our lives without really knowing how to do that. And sometimes you might find you've just ended up with so many things that that you even believe that you're experiencing burnout because you just can't keep going. And I set out to help people to really unpack that and figure out what is really going on in their lives, whether it is in fact uh a burnout scenario where you where you've you your capacity is over, you know, overextended and you're you're boiling over with everything that you need to do. And how do we go about fixing that in a way that serves you best within the parameters of your circumstances? And then also sometimes people who just, you know, they don't really feel as if they're burnt out or they're depressed or anything like that, but they maybe just don't feel like life is really very interesting or exciting, and they're kind of looking ahead and kind of going, now what? You know, is this the next 20 or 30 years of my life? And I don't know where to start. So it's it's it takes the form of multiple processes because you really need to take stock of where you are. Why, you know, how are you feeling? Why are you feeling like that? What is contributing to that, and how those fit into different categories of things that, you know, you can't change, things that are are permanent in your life, uh, you know, whatever that might be, you've got children or you've got an aging parent. There's nothing you can do about that. Those are the things that are part of your life that you need to deal with. But then there may be other things that, you know, have run their course that can be taken out, or things that you can pass on to others or share the load with others. So that fits into the kind of burnout category, but that forms part of everybody's sort of journey in terms of unpacking what are the what are the brick the the bricks that make up this life that that I call mine and how do those fit into the picture? And where is it that I feel things could be improved? And I really like try to tap into the spark of life because I'm a big lover of fairy tales. So anybody who follows me will know that I that that's kind of my my thing. I love fairy tales, I've always loved stories and fairy tales, and the idea of the the fairy tale ending is uh I've had many people say to me, you know, we were told there's a happily ever after, and then we get here and we realize it's actually just a boring old life. And uh I want to try and get people to tap into the that sort of sense of wonder about life that we had when we were kids, and we listened to fairy tales or read them or even watched, you know, movies or had all these aspirations as young people, teenagers, young adults. And and somehow when we get to the midlife, we feel we're too old to be tapping into that childlike wonder or to have the kinds of impossible dreams that we didn't think twice about having when we were when we were kids. And you know, there I've seen it in so many ways. And and there are studies. I'm not a scientist and I don't have statistics to hand, but it's certainly something worth looking into. There's a lot of studies that talk about how purpose in life or or having things that you are excited about actually impact your longevity and your energy levels and your outlook on life, your depression status, etc. And that's what I want to try and help people to do. That, you know, you you might sit there and you don't know where to begin, or you feel hesitant, or you feel unsure, because it's not easy to just change your life overnight. And that's not what I really advocate, you know, just to chop it up and burn it. Let's have a look, what small things we can add to slowly change that dynamic. Because, you know, you might find you have a very boring week, but once a week you're going to a dance class or an art class, and suddenly the week goes by a little bit quicker because you've got something to look forward to, and it's about those kinds of small increments that I want to just shine the light on for people, is really what I do. So, in a very not short sentence, a very long paragraph, that is what I do.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Amazing. I have so many questions I would like to discuss with them. And the first one is uh we all start, or most of us start, with societal induced goals. And we're even excited about these goals because somehow when we're young, we believe okay, that is if if if I achieve something uh of that uh greatness or scale, then my life will be perfect. And uh the society never tells us that you have to constantly reinvent yourself. And somehow, you mentioned the stories and fairy tales, but somehow there in our 30s, probably, we start believing that we are just um just a part of the system, and that we there's nothing we can do about it, and we feel stuck, but maybe not even uh stuck, but uh maybe stuck in a red race and say, okay, this is what I'm good at. I have achieved uh certain kind of status, I have uh achieved financial success, I have a family, and now I have to somehow push this to move, even if I'm not excited about it, I don't know what's what's next. Um I have to play it safe. I I I can't just start a new business or do something like that. I have to play it safe because I have family, I have responsibilities. And somehow this just doesn't seem like fun anymore. And nobody tells us uh how how to turn that uh around and make it seem uh exciting. As you said, uh maybe there's a dancing class that we can look forward to in a week. Or is that is is our society deliberately making us numb? Because it it it seems like if we are depressed, uh then we spend more. Uh we we are afraid more because uh we're afraid what's gonna happen with our uh health. Um we are constantly under some kind of stress that might not be completely um justified, let's call it like this. Uh we live in a time of the biggest abundance of known human history. We have everything, everyone has multiple cars, has multiple houses, things like uh that and uh we know so many people, we can travel around the world, everything is available to us. But um we we're not even as happy as the people that uh just got their meal are, and we're not excited about our meals anymore, even if we have tried all the recipes and uh all the famous chefs and everyone, but uh our meal does not spark the excitement anymore. It's uh where did we get wrong? Why did we just uh lose um our uh so I I'll I'll I'll put it a bit uh mysteriously, and uh correct me if I'm wrong. Where did they kick us out of our fairy tale?

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Correct. No, you know, they did, they did, they did, and and I I've had people say, you know, I've heard this in conversation where people say, you know, we were promised a fairy tale, and then when we got there, you know, it it wasn't that, or we realized it was just an illusion that that they were selling us a false dream. And um and in many ways, you know, that that that is true. And um, you know, the I'm I'm just thinking of some of the things you were touching on, because there's quite a lot in what you just said that that I that I have to say things about. But the idea that that you know the society uh conditions us to to kind of live within the space where we effectively trapped and and forced to continually work in that space because we we build up the sense of fear of losing things and you know our status, our money, all the things that we've built. And those are all valid concerns because nobody wants to, you know, uh just throw away everything they've spent their entire life building. Um so I'm I'm not really an advocate for that, you know, in terms of you know, just crack chop it up and burn everything that you've built. Because the the concerns about your long-term security, your family security, providing for your children, all of those are valid concerns. But but it it does push us in a direction that doesn't always serve us best. So what do people do? We spend money on things because we think constantly buying things will make us feel happier, etc., etc. etc. And what you touched on in terms, so so I mean, of course, that's how we we feed the system, and we're a part of that system because we are producing the things that we're consuming, etc., etc. And that in itself is not really that bad. There's there's there's ideas about how we can change the way we perceive those or the way we engage with those activities and view those things in a different way. Uh certainly, you know, I believe in things like gratitude, in actual fact, taking time to acknowledge that you are fortunate to be having those kinds of things. And what you said as well about, you know, people in in the days when maybe it was difficult to even get a meal, you're 100% right. And it's an interesting thing, is that very often people who face great adversity almost have more sense of joy and satisfaction in things than people who have it really easy. Um, and that's not just an imaginary thing. That is uh, you know, something that's been very observed by philosophers through through time and and many studies. Uh so the adversity factor, so how like so I don't advocate, you know, if you're you're living a comfortable lifestyle, you know, put yourself into a place of poverty. That's not a realistic way to do that. But but that is it is effectively what we would like to recreate in a way in order to give us that sense of achievement, that sense of overcoming something difficult. And that's why I'm a big advocate for taking on things that are low stakes, i.e., they're not going to disrupt your life if they don't go well. So, like you say, maybe starting a bit, you know, give up your job, sell your house and start a business. Sure, if that's what you would like to do and that's what you plan to do, that's great. But if you are happy to stay where you are, how do you replicate that sense of joy and satisfaction that you get from achieving something great? Like you said, the the the things we had as goals as young people building our careers, how do we replicate that? And that's and that's you know, for everybody that looks very different. For me, I I'm a firm believer, and and I'll mention um if if I may, um, a book that I highly recommend, written by a really interesting um lady, uh, that talks specifically about this particular thing that I'm going to mention is that creative arts are um that's just my personal passion, but for for anybody it could be something different. But but arts, for example, is a really great place to sort of explore to see where you could challenge yourself in things that, whether you're good or bad, it's not really going to matter because this is not your career. This is not changing your life. You're doing something that takes your mind away from the things where you're comfortable, used to doing, and maybe quite bored of, um, that are that are not going to challenge you. Your job doesn't challenge you the way something brand new challenges you. So, you know, I'm I'm a big fan of saying, go try out a whole bunch of different things. Maybe you're not good at drawing, you know, when you say to people you must take up art, they go, I can't even draw a stick person. Well, first of all, you can learn to be better than drawing a stick person, but that's not the only form of art. There could be many other types of art that you could explore or other types of things. And I've seen it in multiple people where taking on uh on something creative and challenging themselves to learn something, you know, take up stained glass artwork, take up woodworking, leather work, uh, you know, there's there's a multitude of things. Learn to play a musical instrument. And there was a lady, there is a lady called Daisy Fancourt, and she wrote a book called The Art Cure. She actually she was on a podcast recently that I listened to, and I was so taken with what she spoke about that I went out and bought her book. But she spoke about the scientific studies that have proved how art changes not just your mindset, but physiologically improves your health and your longevity and your well-being. So art is just one of those aspects. I believe art she talks specifically about how incredibly important art is, from reading to writing to art to music to listening to music, going to live musical performances, um, it's going to art galleries and looking at art. Those are the kinds of things that we very often kind of don't imagine are very useful to us, and yet they really are. So that's one angle. My entire program is built on the idea of exploring which things have you never tried or explored that might deliver something to you never imagined. So it's really about stretching yourself to find things that can just deliver that kind of rush of going, wow, I managed to achieve this thing with very low risk entailed. So, yeah, that's my thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

I I have another question. There are so many theories about how the brain develops, how brain reacts. And uh, we have uh so the dopamine addiction theory is really hot now. What's your take on that? How do we unlearn to do that? Because with art, uh we usually need more time to put together an art piece, and um correct, correct. It takes a lot of effort, but then the result is there. And right now we are all trained with these short videos and uh immediate satisfaction and purchasing stuff, all this adrenaline, dopamine, then uh and a lot of uh cortisol left uh um in our body when uh this uh uh cycle finishes. How do you uh propose people go about, for example, new hobbies that could get uh people out of this vicious cycle of dopamine addiction? Um how can they so the art is perfect because you usually need more than one session to finish, for example, a picture or I do a lot of stone art and masonry and stuff like that, and it takes forever. Some works like two to three years, but it's really satisfying when when when you're finished, um and it's a completely different feeling than if you purchase, for example, a sports car. When you purchase it, you're already looking for the next uh car that you're gonna purchase because I now have this one and I need uh that model, and now this is gonna come out, and the prices are the right for this model and stuff like that. It's it's a completely different mindset and uh cycle than if you're doing, for example, masonry work. Uh because they're for example, I'm I'm using multiple rocks and putting them together. Um I I I'm I'm also big in dousing, so I try all the energies and stuff, how how these uh uh rocks can I say uh leave one uh with another uh so that they uh encourage, let's say, positive energy uh if uh I oversimplify a bit. Uh but the idea is I it it takes me for some projects, two to three years, to find the right rock, because I I have a huge property and I have uh queries and stuff like that. And then I I I I I need to find the the right rock, and then I need to bring it closer to my workshop, and then and and it's a process, and it it it it usually it can take six or seven months just to find the right rock for the project. Um but how how how should we people that that are looking for immediate feedback and immediate satisfaction, how should we help them get out of this uh necessity of immediate uh feedback and uh somehow have trust in themselves that even if they work on something for three to four years and nothing because for example, when I pick uh a rock, nothing is there, it's just a rock, and it takes forever to get something out of this rock. Uh and in it can take three years, but in in during these three years, you will see nothing. You will just think that I'm crazy driving around with a tractor and driving around rocks. But uh it's so satisfying on the end, and in and in what what I I call it a lasting satisfaction. I'm I'm so proud of what I did. It's it's it's it's of course not uh like Da Vinci David or something like that, or you know, this but even if I take the right rocks and put it in the right order, uh I'm so proud of them. And I'm I'm saying it it the the satisfaction lasts for years, not for it's it's not just a dopamine shot. Every time I see what I have built, and uh I also work a lot of uh on this uh labyrinths and similar structures with it I I'm proud for years for what I've built. It's not uh work of art per se, like on a world level or something like that. Everyone could replicate that. Um but uh but it it it's it's it's it's so satisfying. And I I feel so proud and I I feel such a sense of achievement. So, what's your take? How to go from this urgency to to to to to get this immediate reward in sense of dopamine shot to get this long-lasting effect of gratitude, of uh feeling worthy for uh what we did.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Well, yes, first of all, I think that sounds fascinating. I'd love to come and look at your labyrinths and your your your your your artworks, um, etc. It sounds amazing and so interesting. I mean, we we could talk for hours just on on your projects, but yes, there's there's a few few different angles. So uh what you're expressing is really um something that I that I feel quite strongly about is that that we we and and and myself I have I have been in that that trap before where where we believe that the outcome is the point or being good is the point. And actually it's not, it's the doing, it's the getting there that's actually the point. Now, how do you translate that into thing into a journey for people who are out there looking for the next dopamine hit? So that that's the question. So there's a variety of ways that you can do that. Part of it is mindset and part of it is clever structuring to give to give you the um your brain, the impression of those dopamine hits. So it it comes down to to um understanding that like if you're gonna choose something, so choosing what you're going to embark on is quite important because if you're gonna choose to do something that's going to take you three years to see an achievement, you need to prepare for that. And if you're somebody who's very at this stage, Very um immersed in looking for the next dopamine hit, that is probably going to be setting you up for failure. So that is not the best journey to start. You need to start to train your brain with smaller things, little wins, little small little experiments of things that start to show you that that embarking on things where you're stretching yourself and putting yourself into a place where you're having to learn things or do something different can deliver you better and more powerful dopamine than pushing the boundaries on the things that you already know and already because those things that you that you've been doing in your life, as you say, you buy a car. So the build-up to the first sports car might be very exciting, but then you then you then you're on to the second one, and the second one's going to be less exciting, and then the third, and then when do you stop? So it almost does have that kind of drug, that drug sort of scenario where it becomes less and less powerful as it goes along. So so teaching your brain that that embarking on new adventures and trying different things can give you dopamine hits, but but if you're very um stuck in that cycle, you need to pick those very carefully so that what you're what you're doing is going to deliver you quite quick. So, for example, let's talk about art because art, of course, everybody knows it can take you years to become a really good artist. So don't start off by trying to be able to paint a uh six-foot-high oil painting. That is that is very challenging because you have no techniques to learn that. So rather finding out how to, and I mean, we live in a in a time where we have resources. I look at the library behind you there. We have that at the tap, you know, at the press of a button on our phone or on our computer, we can find all the information we need. And there's loads of people who show small little tutorials on how to do, you know, how to paint a cat, how to paint a mushroom, how to paint a forest scene or whatever, sea scene. And they can get progressively more difficult. So be realistic and say, I have never drawn anything or painted anything before. Where am I going to start? And and you know, put it in place as something that you're going to give, give, give a try. And don't um and this is this is part of my program, is is that this is a process of um elimination or or constantly reassessing and cycling back. So taking the feedback loops, like trying something out for a month and then kind of going, okay, like how did I actually feel doing that? Was there any moments in this time where I went, hey, look at that, I got that that curve quite right, or the color I picked for this was really good. So it's about really micro um examining those things and the process that you're going through, and then training your brain to acknowledge those as things that are achievements, because that's that's what you know, it's the achieving the goal that gives us that little dopamine hit. So that's that's the kind of dopamine delivery you can get from actual functioning things that you're doing. There are other ways to get um uh to rebuild the enthusiasm for life, and that was like I said, going and looking at things, so engaging in things. Now you Daisy Fancourt, in her talking about the art cure, she spoke about things like television and social media. You might be looking at something interesting or watching something on television. She says they're okay because they are sort of, you know, you're consuming sort of creative things, but it's kind of the junk food of art uh intake, okay, which I quite like the idea of that. It's like the junk food equivalent, it's not really as nutritious as real things. So going and listening, you know, going to the park when there's a band, you know, a band playing, or going to the local art gallery and looking at art, or going to a concert. It doesn't have to be a classical concert, it can be any music that you like. But we've all been to a live concert and we know we come away from that with a much bigger um high than we do just listening to that music on Spotify or on the radio, right? So you can build a scenario where if you really analyze your life and where you're wanting to go and what things used to excite you or which you would like to try out and see if they do excite you, to be very mindful of not putting yours putting yourself onto some long, very boring journey towards something that you have no idea what the outcome is, and to interleave things that help you to keep that momentum. So delivering those shots that are um in a way uh beneficial and fuel for the other journeys, and then building into that mechanisms to help your brain to recognize that this is a dopamine delivering activity, even if you can't see a final result. Each step along the way can be a goal achieved or a or an attainment of something specific. So, for example, your rocks. I was thinking about when you were talking about that. When you find a rock, yes, you don't have the satisfaction of having completed your your final piece, but you have the satisfaction of having found that rock. So that's already one step along the journey of the creation of that um thing. Uh even deciding that a rock that you thought was the right rock is not the right rock is part of that journey because there you have made a decision, there you have made a choice about your artistic um endeavor. So those things can all be reframed and re uh looked at from a different perspective as achievements. Every time, you know, even if you keep having to change out the piece that you you're working with and or having to throw away that piece of paper because you drew the wrong angle, those are all um uh steps along the journey that need to be celebrated and acknowledged. Even showing up is part of the journey, you know, going to the class is part of the journey. You know, if you turn up every week, that is part of the journey, you know, and you need to, if you're really dopamine addicted, put things in place to reward yourself, you know. I I I was listening to um uh someone on Instagram who's who's a crochet uh influencer, and and she and she was saying um, you know, she she sets the goals and then she gives herself very specific rewards for for the for achieving those particular goals. And another another um uh creator that I know of, she also she will actually go and buy the thing that's her reward, but keep it in the packaging in front of her to motivate her to keep going towards something. I mean, that does sort of tip a little bit back into the whole consumerism thing, but tying very specific goals, not buying something just because you can buy it, tying it to something very specific changes the the stakes of of sometimes something that can be really low, um low stakes into something that to your brain is quite high stakes. Um but it but it takes a little bit of self-reflection and and and a bit of planning, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Thank you, Anne. Thank you for all these insights. Before I let you go, I know you're on a tight schedule. Please tell our listeners where they can get in touch with you and what is the best way to connect.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Okay, perfect. So so they can get I will I will share the links with you so that you can put it in your show notes. But the best one is is is at anpafitas.com, which is my nickname and surname. So it's a double n e P A P H I T I S at um.com. So that's the best place to get hold of me, or they can email me at hello at an perfitas.com um and go and check out uh some some of my uh material and program. That would be great.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

And thank you again, thank you for all these insights. Uh you're amazing. It was really nice talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Lovely to chat to you. And I'd love to uh hear sometime more about your rocks and your labyrinths and your tractor.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

It all sounds very exciting. I promise I'll do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Excellent. Um, that's brilliant. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Thank you.