SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Ask for the Skinny Podcast with a guest. I'm proud to present Kyle McDowell. Kyle, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself. What is your story?

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Hey Peter, man, it's great to be with you. Thank you for having me. I'm really grateful for the opportunity. You know, I I do um I guest appear on three to maybe six podcasts a month. And I I've been excited to have this conversation with you because I think you you travel down a path on your show that is rarely discussed, but I think the more light we can shine on it, the more opp the better chance that I think folks have at recognizing where they are in their journey and what what might have an opportunity, what opportunity they have to be a little different. And then the impact and fulfillment that would come from it. And as I had a chance to kind of surf around your channel and listen to some episodes, it occurred to me that you and I have a lot in common. And for me, you know, my my my story, I don't think is very unique. I think I'm I'm I'm not all that unusual. My my scenario is not all that unusual, probably compared to most of your listeners. And for me, entering the workplace uh at the ripe age of 18 years old, I was my first job in the corporate world was right out of high school. And I managed to climb my way up the corporate ladder to the point where I was leading tens of thousands of employees. I was responsible for multi-billion dollar PLs. Um in my last couple of roles, I led 30,000 employees. I had a $50 billion uh PL for which I was responsible. And Peter, from the outside looking in, you see a guy who who was able to climb the ladder and and and have these sexy titles and cool corner offices. And, you know, I checked a lot of quote unquote success boxes in my kind of growth and my path. And but I will tell you, the only thing that matched those vanity metrics and the the ladder that I was climbing was the level of apathy that I started to feel. You call it burnout, and and I think that's probably appropriate for me as well. But I describe it as apathy in that I began to loathe the very environments that I created or that I was responsible for nurturing the cultures inside of these massive organizations. And let me tell you, buddy, that it's a hell of a gut punch to wake up and and and come to the realization that you are you're just not a happy person. Um, you're not contributing to something bigger than yourself any longer. My chase for these individual accolades became the one and only focus. And um, and I'm not gonna pander to you, but I will tell you, I read an article that you that you wrote recently about um uh winning without virtue. Victory without virtue, I think is how you framed it. And and that's kind of the path that I chose. I always delivered results, um, but I did it at the expense of real human connection and my chase for fulfillment and impact that I came into the workplace with, those, those emotions that were so strong, uh, were all eventually replaced with apathy until I had this epiphany moment, probably 20 years into my career, where I recognized that I was approaching everything wrong. And I was the guy that would bang my fist on the desk, was a hard-charging leader. Results at any cost was essentially my paradigm. And um, the apathy put me in this place where I had to, I had to go inside and do some self-reflection and really think about, you know, what it is that I was doing every single day, how I approached my work, how it left me feeling empty and apathetic. And there was one evening where I had just taken a new role where I was leading about 15,000 people. And it was the night before I was going to meet with the top 40 or 50 leaders of my new organization, where I just realized if I wanted to feel differently about my work, if I wanted to reconnect with my desires for fulfillment and to make to have an impact and to leave people in places better than I found them, I had to change the recipe because I had this recipe that I could get results in the process of alienating people and missing out on connection, or I could approach my work differently instead of making nearly every decision with me in mind and how I was going to traverse the next promotion, the next bonus, the next cool title. Um, it was that evening that I realized if I were to invest the same level of energy and more importantly, care into those around me, those I lead, those to my left and right, um, I had a better chance of connecting with people. And I rolled the dice that those connections would would ultimately lead to greater results. And it worked. Um, so it was that evening I created the 10 Whees and their 10 principles, their observable behaviors that are kind of our system of truths. And I had this feeling that if I could get this group of leaders, this 40 or 50 people, and then the subsequent 15,000 that report into them, all aligned on the series of observable behaviors, and we held each other accountable to these behaviors, the 10 Wis, that we had a chance to build something really special. And it worked, Peter, over the course of the next several months and ultimately years, nearly every KPI reached all-time highs. But what's left, what left me, what fueled me to do what I do now, ultimately write my USA Today and Wall Street Journal best-selling book, and do what I do now, working with leaders around the world and a lot of time on stage, is watching those bosses transform into real leaders. And I mean, people that actually give a shit about those that they interact with, those that they lead, those that they work with, those that they serve. And that's what fuels me today because I've seen it, I saw it happen there, wrote the book, and now I do similar work with companies around the globe. And watching people transform uh uh and find fulfillment and impact in their work rather than just going to collect a paycheck is um is something that fuels me and everything I do today.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Amazing. Uh I I like how you explained uh burnout as an apathy. So it's just uh it it hits different for for each of us. Uh and uh I I really like how you did something about it. You did not just give give in and say, Okay, there's not anything, nothing I can do, I just need to stay here and then uh I fill out my 401k and I can afford to to retire. So yeah, can you tell us uh a bit more about uh your book, begin with uh we?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Uh yeah, man. So yeah, I I'd love to. So the the principles that I created that evening, uh, the 10 Wii's, they became the the they were they they found themselves kind of weaved into our cultural DNA. And you can hear leaders start to play back the these principles and their everyday conversations. It's one of my favorite of the 10 Whees is number eight, we challenge each other. And I would start to hear leaders use that, though, those words. Hey, listen, Peter, we challenge each other, right? Which you could watch somebody's defensiveness drop because they know that we're on a level playing field and we're now kind of all aligned around these same uh observable behaviors. We're gonna hold each other accountable to them. And the results that we started to see in that organization were so profound, and the people's transformation that were a part of this organization was so obvious that I knew I had something, but I didn't know, I didn't know exactly, I wasn't quite sure for a long time whether this team was kind of pandering to the new boss or if it was a genuine authentic embrace of these principles. And as time went on, it became obvious it was authentic and it was real. And um I ultimately left that organization, went on to an even bigger role with a different company where I was leading uh at this point, again, about 15,000 people, but this is when I picked up a $50 billion PL, just massive organization, and had had somewhat similar results. And after about a year in that role, I just had this nagging kind of urging that I had a bigger calling. And as I was, as I was kind of thinking through what to do about this calling, because I'd seen these the 10 Wis become mainstays in two organizations at this point, the team, the original team uh in which that I introduced these principles and and where the the 10 Wii's really really took off, they started to call me. And remember, I hadn't, at this point, I hadn't worked with them for a handful of years. And they asked, Hey, when's your book coming? And I had never even entertained the idea of writing a book. And I said, What are you talking about, guys? I'm not, I have no plans to write a book. And they and they challenged me. They're like, well, if you really believe in what you're doing and you believe in the transformation that you've led here and subsequently elsewhere, then it's your obligation. Um, which was really cool because it was it was affirming to me in that this I had long, I'd been gone a long time at this point, but the team was still living these principles and and and it had become kind of their way of leading, but also the ten we've they found a home in in most of these folks' personal lives and their relationships with their spouses and friends and family. So I thought, okay, I'll write a book. Um, and I found myself kind of uncertain, imposter syndrome creeping in, and you know, who's gonna read a book for me? And I made a goal that if I were to sell a thousand copies of my book, I would have achieved quote unquote success. I just I figured I knew enough people that knew enough people and and they would be charitable enough to pick up my book. And as of last month, we passed 55,000 copies sold. As I mentioned, it became a USA Today and Wall Street Journal bestseller. Um, and it just felt as if it was a calling that I had to pursue and follow. And it started off as a bit, a bit of a passion project, and now it's you know, it's um as of last week, it was like the number 43 business book in the world. So it's just it's just reached these heights and these platforms and these audiences that I never really anticipated. And I just consider myself lucky and kind of a facilitator of the message more than anything.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Amazing. Would you say that um your your book is uh uh is basically part of your midlife transformation because absolutely yeah and I would like to talk about your midlife uh expect uh expect basically transformation and how you you you you went from societal induced expectations uh into um freeing yourself of debt and uh doing what you're meant to do.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Um what a beautiful question, man. Yeah, what a i I tell you for it, it must start with self-reflection. We've got it so for many, many years, I just subscribed to this notion that we're supposed to hate our jobs, we're supposed to, you know, just kind of get on this hamster wheel and run like hell every day, but really never get anywhere. And it was during this bit of self-reflection that I realized that during my lifetime, and again, I'm not special. I think this is the case for all of us, we're gonna work anywhere from 90,000 hours to 100,000 hours. And that's second to sleep. The only thing you'll do more while you're on this planet than work is sleep. And when I realized that I'm gonna spend so much time, or I have spent to that to date, so much time in my career, uh, and my and my work had become my identity. And by the way, it's probably worth mentioning I was I was on the verge of a divorce, which ultimately happened. My health was nowhere near where it needed to be, and I certainly just wasn't a very happy person. Um I just I reached this kind of fork in the road where if my work was going to be such a um have such a massive impact on who I was and my identity, then I needed to lead in a way that was more authentic to who I am as a human and not this role, this corporate robot that I felt like I had to be because it was what I observed coming up in the corporate world. It's, you know, you you you you have your personal life, you have your work life, and never the tween shall meet. And I think there's some valid reasons to have that kind of paradigm. But I also have discovered that the more authentic and the more me I can be inside the workplace, the greater the connections, the more likely the outcomes uh that I'm chasing will come. Um and I actually feel good about what I'm doing and not this tyrant who's banging a fist on the desk when things don't go my way. But what happened was this beautiful byproduct that I never intended. So I started to lead with these principles in mind, and I became this, what I would describe as a we oriented leader, someone who I really started to care about the people who I interacted with and see their journeys and their growth and their development as an obligation of me, not a nice to have. And I truly believe that today, Peter. And it's something I never thought about was if you're in a role of in some type of position of authority, and I don't care if it's the chess team, the bowling team, a team inside of the corporate world, or you run a small coffee shop and you have folks that you know report into you that you're responsible for. I think it's a human obligation to help people on their path. If you have an opportunity to help somebody be better than they were yesterday, we have to take advantage of that opportunity. And so what happened is I started to realize the impact that I was finding in the workplace. But then I'd go home and I wouldn't hold myself to those same standards. And I really never had these, I never had, I never held myself accountable to any type of standards outside the workplace. And I, you know, Peter, there's a, you, you can call me a lot of names. You can, you can, you can disparage me, whatever you want. But when I'm, when I am, when I consider myself or or see that I'm behaving in a hypocritical way, or you were to call me a hypocrite, that's something that doesn't sit very well with me. It rubs me really, really wrong. So I started to realize that the more I held myself accountable to these same standards, the burnout I was feeling in the workplace that had started to subside. I had this hunch that if I were to live the same way outside of the workplace and be as authentic as I could in both work environments and my personal life, that I would have this, I would have a greater sense of connection with those in my life. But also, you know, if if we don't hold ourselves to standards, how do how do we, how do we assess whether or not we're living a righteous life or that we're having an impact, we're finding fulfillment in all aspects of our existence. So it all came to a head one day. Uh, and this is kind of a silly story, but I think it paints the picture. The first of the 10 we's is we do the right thing. Always. And I never leave out that one-word, second sentence, always. So one day I was grocery shopping, and uh, and I think it's probably similar uh in in your area of the world, but I lit, I walked out of the grocery store, my cart was full of groceries. I get out to my truck, I unload all of my groceries into the truck, and I was the guy that would not take my cart either back to the storefront or even put it in the little cart corral, you know, that we that each each parking lot has. I just kind of left, I always left it in the parking spot next to me. It wasn't my problem, somebody else would deal with it. Well, there was this day where I was, it was in the middle of all of this self-reflection and kind of thinking through who I was, who I wanted to be, where the gaps were, loaded my groceries up, pulled out of the parking lot, and I looked in my rearview mirror and I see the grocery cart sliding across the parking lot in my rearview mirror. And I thought, you bleeping hypocrite. If you're gonna do the right thing always, then you are not being true to yourself. You're not holding yourself to the same standards that you're expecting everybody else to operate within. And if you're gonna do the right thing always, that means always. So I parked my truck, jumped out, took the the uh the cart back to where it belonged. Proud to report, I've never, ever, ever left a grocery cart out anywhere it's not supposed to be since then. But that's a small example of how without standards, without holding ourselves to a particular set of standards. For me, it's the ten wees. For your audience, it can be anything, but just they have to exist and you have to recognize them and you even share them with others so they can help hold you accountable to that. So it was from that moment on I realized my burnout in the workplace was impacting who I was outside of the workplace. And I had this bout of kind of inauthentic existence on both sides, which forced me to align who I was outside of the workplace and inside of the workplace, hold myself accountable to these standards. And I will tell you, just like you set a goal in any aspect of your life, when you set a goal to lose weight or to learn a new language or to pick up a new skill, the fulfillment and satisfaction that comes when you do that is profound. And that was the that was the tipping point for me is when I realized I had needed to have something to hold myself accountable to in all aspects of my life. Burnout started to become a thing in the rearview mirror. I just never, I felt as if this calling that I was that I was hearing was bigger than just the workplace. And it has and it had a place in my personal life, and it fuels me in all aspects of my existence. And burnout is something I don't even think about any longer.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Amazing, Kyle. Thank you for all these insights. Before we conclude, please tell our listeners where uh they can get in touch with you or uh where they can buy your book.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yeah, and thank you for that opportunity. So, as I've mentioned, the book is called Begin with We: 10 Principles for Building and Sustaining a Culture of Excellence. It's available wherever books are sold. It's in it's in every format you can imagine. Uh, I narrated the audiobook, it's available on Kindle ebook, whatever. It's it's everywhere. Um, and I'm all over most social media platforms um uh with the handle of uh Kyle McDowell Inc. Uh my website is Kyle McDowell Inc.com. And I've started to use these platforms as communication mechanisms more than anything. And I hear from readers pretty much every day now, uh, which again all also fuels what I do. So I I'm I'm pretty accessible on on every platform, uh, Kyle McDowell, Inc.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

Kyle, thank you again for all these insights. Uh you've been amazing, and um thank you again, and uh I'm looking forward to reading your book.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Well, thank you, man. It's been it's been my pleasure to join you. You're doing really important work, and I'm glad to be a part of it. Thank you, Peter.