SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Ask Feliskini podcast with a guest. I'm proud to present Betsy Bake. Betsy, welcome to the show. Please tell us more about yourself. What is your story?

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Hi there. Well, thanks for having me on. I mean, I think I have a lot of stories, Peter, but I think the one that will resonate the most is really my story of my own life in my 50s, of um deciding that my marriage had come to a conclusion. I think that's a really hard place for a lot of people to get to. We don't necessarily dream when we're young kids about growing up and then being single at mid-50s. And so, you know, the work that I do in the world is helping women make this big decision on whether to stay or leave. And the reason I think I can do that so well is not only because of my training and and this, you know, with the work that I do, but also because I went through it. You know, I was in a really unhappy marriage for a long time and um tried to work things out. And I always say, like, I got the bravery to leave. I leaned into hope and tried to see if we could work things out. And when it didn't work out, I had the wisdom to know, you know, that this had come to a conclusion and that I could reinvent my life for myself in midlife.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Okay, amazing. Uh, let me play the devil's advocate here. Okay. Um, so most modern um theories or um doctrines, I don't know how we want to call them, uh, they they are all about leave your marriage if you're not okay there. But uh, what do you think? Uh you you said that you try to save the marriage. How important is uh for for us to try and save the marriage while we are experiencing midlife crisis? Because we don't know who we are, uh, we don't know what what will happen next, because uh the life has changed. The children um are no longer with us, they're they're grown up now, everything is uh changing, economy is changing, we don't have a problem with money anymore. Uh, because we we made some money, so we're we're well off, and yeah, stuff like that. But um, so our role is different. We're not there to make money to to to to meet our basic needs. Now we want something better or the next level, and uh we want to be prepared for the next 50 years of our life. So, um, how should we go about it? Is is is that just a trend? It's it is it uh necessary to to to to get divorced? Uh um is that is is there like a halftime of our life? Why should we do it?

SPEAKER_00 2:49

What's yeah, you know, I don't I don't think so. I think it's lovely when people stay together. I love when people come to work with me and decide to stay together. I think that's great. I think that everybody goes through changes when they get to certain ages. We go through certain changes when we're in our 20s, different changes when we're in our 30s. Our focus is different in our 40s and 50s. And I think like the midlife thing that we often think about, I think is because um a lot of things were probably avoided in the earlier years. And so by the time you get to the place where you're in your 50s or late 40s, you have exhausted yourself. I I think it makes for a really healthy relationship to constantly be growing. I think people are, as human beings, we're supposed to be growing. And I think that a really good partnership, the people grow together. You know, they're not the same person they were in their 20s. They're not supposed to be. But I don't think it means you have to get divorced. I think it means you have to be accepting as each other change and re-ignite things and and re-acclimate to each other as you go through those different changes. So I think partnership in your midlife can be amazing. I think if you're able to make that happen, I think that what happens a lot is culturally there are some really big differences as men and women are going through those years, 30s, 40s. And like you say, you're focused on making money. You're focused on your career. You know, women are typically focused on building their families and taking care of their homes and building a career. Like so they're they're pretty pooped by the time their kids are ready to leave and go, you know, off to college or, you know, leave the nest, as they say. And then I think what happens is people come back together and they're like, I don't really know you because I haven't been doing the back and forth with you for a long time. And I think that's, you know, that's the thing where I work with women to say, like, is this salvageable? I think it's a beautiful thing to have hope and to lean into hope and try to make things work. I also think that after a long, long time, there's a lot of things that are built up. And, you know, there I think there's uh a point where maybe you decide to move forward on your own, but the way that you framed that made me think that that was a failure. And I don't see that as a failure, I just see that as a choice.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Okay, so uh do you do you think that the till death uh gives us a part is uh the it's it's the concept that we can no longer stick to because of uh the times that we're living in?

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, I think it's the death of the relationship. I don't think it's the death of the people. So till death of this relationship do we part. I don't think the vows were ever meant to have one partner completely abandoning themselves in order to keep things together. That's not a good relationship. So I don't see that at like when you say till death do us part, like those are vows, and those are vows some religions use. Not all vows look like that. And I don't believe in the you have to stay together till somebody dies just because you said that when you were 22.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

So um do we have just to come to terms that uh marriages might or might not be a long-term thing? Uh and it's it's it's hard to predict uh because uh we will we will change during the marriage, and if if if uh we grow too much apart and it's just impossible to keep everything together without uh depression, anxieties, and stuff like that. So it's it's even more sane or healthy to to get divorced. Uh would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

I I mean I think what I would agree with is that every single situation is so unique and that being a healthy whole person is a really important as you evaluate whether you can continue in a partnership. But if you're in a marriage and not a partnership and you're abandoning yourself and your health is being impacted, and you're trying and you're asking, and this goes both ways, not just women doing this work, men do it too. So if that's the case, I think it's a really healthy to know this isn't working anymore. Like this, the the thing that we stood up and said we would do forever doesn't exist. And I think that's a really healthy place to be. And so, you know, what I like to say is like, is the marriage complete? It's it's not a failure if you decide to part ways. Nobody wants to go through that. There is not one person I have ever met that decided to get divorced that thought, oh, this was the dream. I always wanted this for myself. Like, nobody wants that, you know, but there are times where staying with somebody is is detrimental and moving forward on their own is really important, and I think that's like a reckoning people have to come to.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So basically, we we should just um we should think how we think about marriage because uh there's still this romantic um expectation of uh finding the right one and spending the life together, but the reality is that uh more than half of the marriages are just not working. So are we not doing enough, or um is the or has the reality changed so much that we that that um it's it's more luck than uh the rule that the marriage will last?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, you know, do you know how Elizabeth Gilbert is? She wrote that book, Eat Prey, Love, which was a movie with Julia Roberts. But she wrote a really big good book called Commitment, and it was actually about the history of marriage. And the merit what we have right now is marriage is not how it began. That's not really how it started. And I think that you've got to really look at individually, like, how do you define marriage? How do you define partnership? What is it that you want? I think we are handed a lot of things when we're young, like this is what partnership is, this is what wives do, this is what husbands do. And we never really decide that for ourselves. And I think that there gets to be a place in our lives where we say, you know what, we're living past 32 now. So, like marriages that are 50 and 60 years long, like I have women that come to me in their 70s, Peter, like in their 70s, and they say, I have been in a miserable marriage for 40 years. I don't know how to keep doing this. Like what I know about women is that they say when they're unhappy, and that if they've been in an unhappy marriage for 40 years, to me, that means somebody's not listening to them. And so I think that if that's how you define marriage, then I think the continuation of divorce rates will, you know, will be steady.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

But I think if you're people are ready to re-evaluate for you, because I I really want your point of view on that. Um, is uh is it possible that we no longer have an um handling mechanism how how to handle our misery in the marriage anymore?

SPEAKER_00 11:07

And uh we don't well the the yeah, I mean the way we managed it before was that women absorbed it, yes, and and women aren't doing that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

So basically, so the way the old mechanism doesn't work, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

It it's not applicable anymore. And uh so instead of handling it or absorbing it as you call it, uh we just go and uh divorce.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

So no, that's not that's not uh that's unfair. Okay, that's unfair. So what I'm saying is that women have always absorbed what's happened, they have kept the peace, swept things under the rug. That's just how he is, that's how it's gonna be, and they acclimated. And women are getting to a place now in the world where they no longer have to acclimate. They have the ability to make their own choices, make their own money, live their life the way that they want, and they're allowed to have lives that are happy. And when they're in a situation where they have always been the absorber, I think a lot of women are saying, I'm not willing to do that anymore. Now, there's another option. You don't have to get divorced, you have to come together. But to come together means that the partner and the partnership has to be re-evaluated. You know, the if women aren't able to continue the way that they are, then men aren't able to either. And we can just continue to get divorced, or men can stop and say, hey, maybe there's something here for us to learn. Maybe there is a change in the way things are going. And my job, I'm using air quotes, job, as it was defined, you know, in the 30s and 40s to provide and to, you know, put food on the table and provide shelter and all of these things. That's not my job anymore because somebody else is able to do that. So now I have to redefine what does that mean for me? How do I men need to redefine well? How do I want to show up in partnership? What does partnership mean for me? Like there can be more for men because that is not a that can be a miserable existence of never being close, of never being able to come into true partnership. So there's an opportunity here. When women say, I'm not going to do it that way anymore. Men should really be excited about that. They should be, okay, great. Like, what could be different for me then, too?

SPEAKER_01 13:51

But uh let me be the devil's advocate once again. Okay, I believe that we have become the society of entitled individuals, and our uh inherited goals or what we expect of marriage are just not working anymore because everyone has become so entitled, and we don't see marriage as um let's say as a functional unit that provides uh shelter and safety and food on the table, but uh we see it more as a something that uh fulfills our let's say psychological needs as well, and marriage never was, except for the safety, never was there to um so the the the role of the marriage was not to fulfill psychological needs, and uh says who says who.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

How do you where did you get that definition that marriage is not meant to fulfill psychological needs?

SPEAKER_01 14:55

Well, yeah, because the idea of marriage was uh for for the union to to to breed kids and uh know who's the father and take care of the lineage. That was the idea.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

So you're talking about like how long ago are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 15:12

Like 200 years ago. Okay, and okay. I'm talking about I'm talking about the the the marriage that we are still have in our collection, collective unconscious, as the Jung would would call it. Yeah and uh I I think that is the biggest challenge, and now we all expect so much more of marriage.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

So we we want to have uh a walk as we evolve, yeah, as we evolve as people and as a society, sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Um, and and we we we are expecting so much more of marriage, and and I I believe that is the the key to our disappointments because we expect so much more. Is it realistic that you have your partner, your psychotherapist, uh, your friend, and everyone in the same person? Is that even the realistic?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

It's interesting that that's how you would define what women are looking for now, because I don't think that's what women are looking for. Women actually have really good relationships typically, they have a lot of outside friendships and other interests. That's a really normal thing. And in fact, that's when we talk about the male loneliness epidemic, it is because men don't have that outside. So I don't think women are looking for men to fulfill everything. I think they're looking for men to not leave everything to them. So for us to, I say us, I'm you, you know, women, a typical gender role of women right now, you know, we we work. I mean, I know in my former relationship, I was the breadwinner. I made a lot of the decisions. I was in charge of the finances, I did everything at the house, I scheduled everything at the house. Like it was exhausting. There was not true partnership. And so I don't think like a lot of women are looking for an old school 200-year-ago version of marriage. I think I think they're looking to redefine it. And I think they're looking to their partners to do that work with them. But I think a lot of men benefit from the situation as it had been, and it's difficult to move out of that mindset and accept that there could be another way.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Okay, I'll ask you another question that I believe it's uh are you loving this, Peter?

SPEAKER_00 17:36

I'm loving this.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, because I'm on the other side now. Uh so is it possible to set up a marriage in a way that is uh mutually beneficial, or it's always um win-lose situation? Is there a win-win situation in marriage, or the win-win situation is the just a theoretical possibility that's in it's impossible to do in real life?

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. I I don't know, that's a philosophical question we could probably debate for hours. I mean, I would like to think it's possible. I don't think every, you know, I I don't know any woman out of the hundreds and hundreds and thousands of women that I have talked to and worked with that anybody thinks it's supposed to be great all the time. I think women understand that people are human and have flaws. And I think they also understand that there isn't a world where one person can do everything that they've been doing. And and you know, we've seen, you know, we've seen this rise in in divorce rates, but we also saw a decline in um spousal uh death rates. Like it there's been it divorce hasn't been a negative thing in terms of moving us forward. I think it's just like a new conversation that needs to happen around what does this mean for us now? How do we want to move forward now? And then I think it's even more important, and I think the young people are doing this work where they're evaluating what do I really want in a partner and is this person able to be that? And if they're not, that's okay. But they're not wasting their time with people that aren't able to adapt to what's coming.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah, but uh are are these expectations realistic or are these just a theory?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Uh, this is what I'm uh asking myself because I want Tell me what are the expectations that you see that you think could must only be theory?

SPEAKER_01 19:49

No, no, it's it's not that must be, but um yeah typical typical what happens with uh female is like you have to be over six foot foot two, you have to have over uh a million dollar uh uh yearly uh income, uh, then uh you have to be fit and all this stuff. And then uh when we just uh put and of course that you have to be empathic and you have to love my parents and you have to accept my friends and stuff like that. And when we put all this down, um we see that there's just not enough men that can fulfill that, and it's yeah, I don't think most women are unrealistic, and and and the vice versa.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

I don't think most women are really have that list that you just said. And I know this from being in Facebook groups, and uh like there is that is what you're saying is like a fantasy, like a men would have a fantasy that it's like a model that cooks and cleans, and like I just what you're saying isn't really the truth of what women really want. Women are way more women are much more able to say, you know what, I'll take this, but not this. I want this and not this. Like okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Let's let's let's discuss top five things that you you think that uh uh women now are um looking in a man.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Respect.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

I think women want someone that respects them. I think something I hear a lot is women want to be with a man that actually likes them for them and not just for what they can do for them. I think women want someone who's emotionally available and able to connect with them. I would say those would be the things that come to my mind as I listen as I think about Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

The emotional availability is a huge challenge because um it's easy. Easy to say, be uh emotional available, but uh when does emotional availability go into emotional abuse? That is the thin line there.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Wait, what's a tell me what you mean by that? What do you mean there's a thin line between emotional availability and emotional abuse? You we may have different definitions of emotional availability.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah, so for example, um a man needs to be able to accept and uh process emotion from uh their uh female partner, woman.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

That is yeah, woman, and and that can be be overwhelming, and then go to therapy, like being able to have hard conversations that are emotionally based with another human should, if it's overwhelming, you need to go get help. No, okay, well, we'll just agree to disagree. But that's why women aren't with you, like that's why women aren't choosing men like that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah, the the idea of being emotionally available is like yeah, that's just a either you are emotional available or you're not, and it doesn't work like that. You can be emotional available today, but tomorrow you're not because you have some things to think about, or yes, but that doesn't mean you're not emotionally available, that means that your your capacity is different.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

How do you know that your client is?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

But there's a but that's not emotional availability, that's capacity, Peter.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Okay, potato, potato. Uh it's uh that's a different definition.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

I mean, get a dictionary, it's a different definition.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah, I I I don't think I uh the the biggest problem is how do you measure that? And uh what is the emotional availability? As you you can define it, but how will you define it in time? In for example, in 20 days in the month, or uh in one month.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Well, that's when individuals, that's why I'm saying you can't put a blanket thing. This is like one person, like I I might be fine with someone that's emotionally available twice a week because I my capacity is different than somebody else's. So that's why you have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Where I'm getting it.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Yeah, that's why I think what you're saying is right of like you've gotta find your person and you've gotta find somebody you're compatible with in that way.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

But what if a person like that does not exist? Then you stay single.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, then you stay single till you find them.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Well, what if you never find them because uh you're then you live a wonderful life.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

You go and you build your life. It your life doesn't depend on having a partner. A partner should be an add-on, something that adds to your life, not something you settle for. So you go and build your life, you build your career, you travel, you have friendships, you do things.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Is it possible to have a fulfilling life without a partner?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Oh my god, I have a wonderful life. I travel all over, I have a beautiful career, I have close, close friends, I do loads of things. Yeah, I have a pet that I love, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

Okay. Yeah, like I'm not missing anything. If I brought somebody else in, it'd be a cherry on top. It's not because I need them to feel something in me. Like, I do not want to be with somebody that needs me to feel something in them. That's a disaster relationship waiting to happen. I want someone that has a wonderful life that I can be a part of. Like, that's a bore if you if you've got to make somebody's life. Yeah. Yeah, and I think women don't want to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But we have, for example, a social life should be one-third of our life, for example, or at least one third of our brains are um or is constructed for for uh social interactions. And then uh if if we go further in, and I know I'm a materialistic in this, uh, but uh then um there is a part of a brain for a partnership, and if you don't use it, you can of course compensate it with other things. But is there is that a fulfilling life? And and we're back to definitions again. Um so tell us more how you help uh how you help your clients um decide and what what's your way? Uh is are there conversations? Do you have books that you um propose to to read? How how you go about your work?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

Yeah, yeah. I mean, my work has a lot of different aspects to it. Um, we have a curriculum, you know, that we use to be able to just teach some of the skills that I think are really necessary to be able to know yourself really well. You know, one of the things that I often say is stop asking him to change. Like he is who he is, accept who he is. Decide who you are, what you want. If he's able to meet this, know what your standards are and what your values are, communicate those with him. And if he's able to meet your standards and you're able to meet his standards, then you can renegotiate things from there and reconnect in a different way. I think what's happened in a lot of cases is that women have abandoned for so long they don't really know who they are. And I think that's a really important part of whether you fix your marriage or you decide to leave, is you have to really reclaim yourself first. And that's the most important piece. And I always say, like, as flippant as it sounds, but that has nothing to do with him. Like, stop centering him. And, you know, people women tend to put a lot of energy towards like, if he would just do this thing, we could would be okay. Like, stop, like, don't stop and re-give all that energy to yourself and figure out who you are, get settled, understand yourself, know how to know what it is that you want, and and then move forward from that place. So that's really the work that I do with women as they try to make these big choices.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Betsy, before we finish, where can our listeners and viewers uh get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram. It's just my name, Betsy Pake, like like a cake, but with a P. So Betsy Pake, um, they can find me on my website, Betsy Pake, and I have a free masterclass there if they want to learn more about some of the work that I do.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Amazing. Betsy, thank you for being my guest tonight, and thank you for all the insights.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah, thank you.